In an exclusive interview with Ms. Sindhu Menon, Special Correspondent, Labour File, Minister of State for Labour and Employment, Mr. Harish Rawat discusses the government`s views on the regulation of domestic work and the protection of domestic workers. Rawat emphasises that the number of domestic workers is large, and that the government`s current priority is to frame and implement a comprehensive national policy.

What is the government`s assessment on the number of domestic workers in India? Does it have any plan to garner more precise information, particularly in the 2011 Census?

There is no authentic data available on the number of domestic workers in India. We understand the need, and V.V. Giri National Labour Institute has been asked to find out, on the basis of various studies and observations, what the exact number is.

The NSSO data shows that there are 4.5 million domestic workers in India. According to the 2001 census, the number is above 67 lakhs. But my estimate, the most conservative number will be more than one-and-a-half crores. The so-called, white-collared middle class in India is around 3 crores, and a middle class family without a maid is a rare phenomenon. In such a situation, the estimate I mentioned earlier is the most conservative assumption; the number of domestic workers will be more than 1.5 crores.

Counting the number of domestic workers becomes all the more difficult because there is an issue of privacy involved in collecting details. Knocking on every private door might not be possible because every one prefers to maintain privacy. The Delhi Police had initiated a way of registering workers. Employers were asked to make photo identity cards of their domestic workers, with the help of the police. But the results have not been very positive.

The National Social Security Board (NSSB), which looks at unorganised workers for targeted welfare schemes under the Unorganized Workers Social Security Act, has been asked to work towards obtaining statistics on domestic workers. The Board, with the assistance of a sub-committee, will develop a methodology to count domestic workers. The Government of India is determined to take up the issue of domestic workers very seriously. One model the ministry has in mind is the Mathadi workers model. One will have to first study the reach and success of that model as well.

Domestic workers, particularly women, in the confines of homes, are among the most exploited in India. What are the factors preventing Government of India from enacting a law protecting the rights of this group of workers?

Accounting for live-in maids is the most difficult task. The household will have to continue to be a private space without any legislative intrusion. The first major difficulty is that there is no definition of domestic workers. The task force, constituted in January 2010 under the leadership of the director general, Labour Welfare, is in the process of finalising such a definition, and it will be announced soon. The formulation of the definition is a very difficult task. A boy working in a wayside dhaba falls under which category? What about cooks, watermen, ironing people, gardeners, drivers? There are innumerable such issues that have to be sorted out. The section of people to be included and those to be excluded have to be finalised first.

Domestic workers will have to be registered, and only then one can come up with schemes for their welfare. Having a law or enacting a law for protecting women domestic workers can be taken up when there is a proper definition of domestic workers and when they get registered.

The National Commission for Women has drafted a bill for protecting the rights of domestic workers. Was the labour ministry consulted in the process? Do you think this bill could be taken up further and presented in the Parliament? What is its status?

When the National Commission for Women drafted the Domestic Workers (Registration, Social Security and Welfare) Act 2008, the Ministry of Labour was also consulted. This bill also seeks to establish a registration procedure for all domestic workers, including part-time and full-time workers.

The Government of India is in the process of formulating a National Policy for Domestic Workers. This will be a comprehensive policy, looking at various issues pertaining to domestic workers. We will be giving priority to this policy now.

If the Government of India proposes a new law, what would be the specific provisions?

Drafting a national policy is our foremost priority, and we will, of course, be coming up with new laws. But what specific provisions will be included is very difficult to comment now. It will all depend on the National Policy.

Do you think that domestic work can be regulated? If so, how? If not, why?

The government is serious about regulating domestic workers. But exactly how this is to be done is an issue of concern. We realise that different categories of workers need different approaches. The first step is to set out a definition. Then comes the process of identifying the agencies that can undertake such registration and identification of domestic workers. After this, comes the process of regulation. The Shops and Establishment Act is one such law that could be explored. But this Act, which is applicable to shops, if used for households, will surely be challenged. There are many other existing laws-The Minimum Wages Act 1948, Child Labour Prohibition and Regulation Act 1986, Domestic Violence Act 2005 and so on. But the question is, under which of these laws should domestic workers be regulated? This should be studied.

Has the Ministry taken steps to provide social security to domestic workers? How?

As mentioned earlier, we are determined to formulate, at the earliest, a National Policy on this. The Task Force of the NSSB has come up with many good suggestions. It has recommended that Rashtriya Swasthya Bima Yojana (RSBY) and the National Pension Scheme be extended to domestic workers. Under RSBY, which is a health insurance benefit, below the poverty line (BPL) workers are entitled up to Rs 30,000. The task force has also worked out that benefits for health and maternity, death and disability, and old-age, should follow this. RSBY is run on biometric cards, and its extension to domestic workers will give them a permanent identity; later, other benefits can be better targeted without leakage.

In line with the Unorganised Workers Social Security Act 2008, Government of India is even thinking of coming up with a new social security Act only for domestic workers. This will entitle them to PF, pension and other benefits.

Does the ministry acknowledge the rampant exploitation of domestic workers by recruiting agents? What steps is the government proposing, to regulate recruitment and punish violations?

Yes. We are aware of it. Placement agencies, which work as mediators in getting employment for the domestic workers, exploit the domestic workers to the core. A large number of agencies engage in fraudulent practices. They mobilise uneducated tribal young girls and place them in such a situation in which wages are rarely paid to them in full.

Stringent action has to be taken against such placement agencies. As a first step, these agencies should be regulated. The Shops and Commercial Establishments Act 1953 should be used to regulate placement agencies. We are even thinking of asking the state governments to declare minimum wages for workers. A notification will be issued to take immediate action for ensuring minimum wages for domestic workers.

We cannot evade the responsibility of regulating placement agencies. It is the duty of the government, and the implementation of this cannot be given to other agencies. We should formulate a code of conduct for them and penalise the violators.

A large number of Indians work as domestic workers outside the country in extremely precarious conditions; what steps has the government taken or is it intending to take in order to address their problems?

This is a critical area of concern. The Overseas Affairs ministry will be better placed to answer this. However, we believe that measures have to be ensured to protect these workers, who are basically ignorant and vulnerable. They should be given proper training about their rights as well as how to protect themselves from being cheated by placement agencies. Initiatives should be taken to upgrade their skills and provide them with pre-departure orientation. Besides these, proper attention should be given to see that the recruitment agencies are registered.

How does the government view the idea of `professionalising` domestic work, especially in the context of the large pool of women and male workers available for work in rural and urban areas? Does the government have any programme along these lines?

We understand the need for professionalising domestic workers. Training should be given to domestic workers on the use of household electrical gadgets and appliances and the security precautions required in the household. Skill development will also be a part of the National Policy. We are also working towards having a modular employable skills scheme for domestic workers, which will be part of the NSSB.

Domestic child labour has been declared a hazardous employment. Nevertheless, child domestic labour prevails. What steps are being taken to address this issue?

The root cause of child labour is poverty and illiteracy. Through the convergence of various programmes, we are attacking the roots of child labour. We are hopeful that with the passing of the Right to Education Act, some positive changes will take place in children`s education. Our expectation is that the incidents of child labour will be reduced soon. Besides, the Child Labour Prohibition and Regulation Act (CLPRA) 1986 is also well in place.

Recently, we developed a protocol for the rescue and rehabilitation of child labour in hazardous areas. The National Child Labour Project (NCLP), formulated in 1988, runs schools for working children. Under the Scheme, 4002 schools have been sanctioned in 100 NCLPs during the Ninth Plan, and these is expected to increase to 10,000 schools during the Tenth Plan. To date, we have been able to mainstream 6 lakh working children into the formal education system and currently 4 lakh children are studying in different schools under this project. The Scheme has been expanded to 150 districts more in the Tenth Plan, thereby covering a total of 250 districts in the country

The CLPRA, NCLP, the Convergence Project- an international programme of ILO for the elimination of child labour, implemented in collaboration of Child Labour Division of the Ministry for Labour and Employment-and so on will soon result in eradicating child labour. We have also introduced the mid-day meal programme in schools.

At present, the focus is on the source areas (places where they come from) of child labour. Certain check points have been developed and the first initiative of giving training to employees of the Indian Railways has begun. V.V. Giri National Labour Institute has given training to railway guards. They have been trained to identify children, who board trains, in search of employment. Identifying these children at the source station itself will be helpful to take measures to control them. We are planning to involve the panchayats and the NGOs, to act against child labour. There are certain communities that have never sent their children to school.

A holistic approach is required to address this deep-rooted problem.

The latest report on ILO Convention on Domestic Work shows that the Government of India has suggested a Recommendation and not a Convention? What are the specific reasons for taking such a position?

Our approach is very simple. We ratify a Convention when we see that there is a law in place. We feel that the situation is such that developing country governments are not yet able to provide all social security measures for its workers. We have to first put things in place nationally.

There is need to develop some guidelines on the working conditions of domestic workers. A Recommendation will help achieve flexibility in implementation and provide guidance for the regulation of domestic work.

You said earlier that the Government of India seriously considers the enactment of a law for domestic workers. Can we expect it before 2011, when ILC is expected to consider a proposed Convention for domestic workers?

Industrial establishments come under various laws. There are also municipal laws and Shops and Establishment Act. Under which law can you come and knock on my private door? This is a practical issue.

It is actually tightrope walking. Without offending the privacy of the individual household, one will have to collect data and enforce the law. Many consider domestic workers as part of their family and an issue of mutual confidence. The employer-servant relationship should not be spoilt. By passing a law, if this confidence erodes, such a law will not function properly. At the same time, domestic workers should get protection. It is going to be a gigantic task. We have constituted the task force in January 2010. It will function properly. The only thing is that we need more time.

Is it likely that the government will change its position if there are chances that India is isolated in its stand on the inadvisability of a Convention, perhaps to avoid bringing disrepute to the country before the international community?

India will not be isolated. This might be the view of almost all developing countries.

While answering the ILO questionnaire, the Government of India has asked that the phrase `child domestic worker` in the definition of domestic worker be changed to `young domestic worker`. Why was this done?

Children should not be included as workers. We think child labour should be done away with. Thus, it should be `young worker` and not `child worker`.